Updated: UK Angel network Angels Den plans startup ‘marketplace’. But do they work?
by Milo Yiannopoulos
on July 20, 2009

Angels DenSomething’s going on at Bill Morrow‘s investor network, Angels Den. Not only has key aid Rob Carter just quit – we don’t know why – but familar face Paul Walsh of Segala and Wubud is about to be announced Head of Digital. Paul has been singing the network’s praises for a while now. [See update below].

So does Paul Walsh’s appointment mean Angels Den is focusing on digital (whatever that means these days)?

“Yes,” says Bill. “The largest part of our success has been based on speed-funding – getting random people together with random angels – but we’ve found that digital companies struggle to condense their pitches down to three minutes.

“We’re now a Microsoft European partner and a Sun worldwide partner, but we’re not making the most of those relationships at the moment. Paul Walsh is now heading our digital strategy thanks to his connections with entrepreneurs, angels and the digital ecosystem generally. We’re looking to reach out to a whole new community.”

Walsh will be taken on as a consultant and charged with creating a digital marketplace where tech start-ups will be matched with Angels who know a little more about the industry.

In case you’re not familiar with the two-year-old Angels Den, Bill updated me this afternoon on their latest set of figures: “We have 2,800 registered Angels and just over 10,000 entrepreneurs looking for money. We’ve  completed 157 deals, with an average deal size of £170k which equates to nearly £25m of funding.”

Angels Den takes a 5% commission on deals, which – based on the figures above – means they’ve raked in £1.25m in two years. You can’t blame Walsh for wanting a slice of that pie.

But this new initiative comes at a time when other services are swarming around trying to pick up the service / consultancy side of the startup market. GrowVC is another such “marketplace” which recently launched in the UK offering services to startups including – allegedly – access to small amounts of seed funding from $10,000 to $1m, which is quite a range.

The question is, do any of these services really help entrepreneurs? What are your experiences? Leave your views below.

UPDATE: Bill Morrow has now emailed us to say that Cater was “not a founder” and that they are “not doing a marketplace” and Angels Den has “not taken a 5% fee for more than 6 months.” Make of that what you will, but this is the story we had from them at publication.

In addition to which their site continues to say: “Then, once you’ve got your funding, we ask for a 5% success fee.” and here “Once you get funding we ask for a 5% success fee”.

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  • Larry Lamb

    If there are 2,800 Angels registered why is there always the same 20 or so ‘Angels’ at their events.

    Plus who are these 157 businesses that have been funded as there is never any ‘success stories’ on their website… Not even their names! Other investment companies shout their success stories from the rooftops.

    They might have sorted out an investment or two, but 157 NO WAY! Prove it!!!

  • Tech Company

    Surely a quick glance at their companies house logged accounts will show if these guys are closing all the deals (which they never provide any details on!) or if they are economical with the truth.

  • http://angelsden.co.uk Frank

    Latest Companies House accounts as at 30th June *2008*

    http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=332246ea316cecb1d6baebe61b361f7ce04e75f6e8ebb871

  • Rodolfo

    As useful as real estate agents and recruiters.

  • http://www.estatecreate.com Henry Yates

    Does not look too healthy – £206k loss for the year ending 30 June 2008.

    It must be difficult to make money on those size deals – 5% of £170k=£8,500, which is not much to cover all the work involved in securing cash from lots of small investors.

    I guess that is why they need to sell consultancy services as well. Issue is consultancy is the last thing a fledgling business needs – over priced advice from someone who does not have a direct interest in the business (unless they do it for equity).

  • http://www.jranger.com Julian Ranger

    As an angel investor myself and also a digital entrepreneur, I can understand the difficulties of raising funding and finding viable projects to fund. Anything that matches funding to investors WITHOUT charging for the introductions upfront has to be a benefit. Entrepreneurs have to understand that, whilst they want to spend all their time working on their idea, they have to really work to get people to part with their cash – this means lots of pitches, lots of networking and time preparing their pitches. And then when the investment comes in, work at keeping your investors going – you will need their support and possibly a second round of funding.
    So good luck to Angels Den and Paul – my view is that anything that brings a £ to the table should be welcomed and encouraged.

  • Bob Andrew

    On your update: mostly what I’m making of that is that you didn’t bother to contact the subject of your article before you published it. Are you just making this stuff up?

  • http://twitter.com/mikebutcher Mike Butcher

    That’s actually the story we had from them at publication. We’re just carrying their denial in the interests of balance and because when we asked them to post a comment to that effect they didn’t.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steven_Renwick/683805300 <fb:name linked="false" useyou="false" uid="683805300">Steven Renwick</fb:name>

    Angels Den has “not taken a 5% fee for more than 6 months.”

    So they waive the 5% fee now? It’s still on their website.

  • http://paulfwalsh.com Paul Walsh

    That was *not* the story you had from Angels Den at the time of publication. At what point do you think Bill would have made up the story about an employee being a co-founder.

    At what point do you think he, or I (as I had a conversation with Milo) stated ‘startup marketplace’. Milo clearly mixed up Angels Den with the new startup I’m launching; http://startupmarketplace.

    I’m confused as to why you’re being so negative. I’ll write my own post. Surely you should be more supportive of any investment vehicle that helps startups and who is now focusing on the type of companies you write about!

    Very disappointed at the poor quality of this post and Mike’s response in the comments. As I said, I’ll write my own post.

  • Bob Andrew

    The words ‘By Milo Yiannopoulos’ might explain why they’re being so negative, and why the reporting was cocked up.

  • Doing due diligence

    I was told by Bill that it was £500 payment to present and I would be charged a 5% commission on funds raised at Tech Mission London last month. No coaching was offered. He would not agree to make it a success fee based payment.

    Anyone had experience of successfully raising money through them or others?

    Thank you.

  • http://inmamartinez.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/yo-ceo-when-you-fund-raise-your-brain-must-turn-bi-polar/ Yo, CEO! When you fund-raise, your brain must turn bi-polar « INMA MARTINEZ

    [...] as many times as I have knows that there are no two meetings alike. In the background these days, Angel forums, entrepreneurs investment funds, and VCs that manage to close their new funds populate the industry [...]

  • http://twitter.com/mikebutcher Mike Butcher

    Sorry if you think we got it wrong Paul but that was the story we had at the time, and Milo took notes.

  • http://twitter.com/mikebutcher Mike Butcher

    From http://www.angelsden.co.uk/Applicants/AppOne.aspx?tag=75 :

    What do we charge for this service?

    There’s a £499 charge to get your business plan online with a half hour review. Our charges page tells you about the charges for other services (Speed Funding events, training events etc). Then, once you’ve got your funding, we ask for a 5% success fee. It might be a good idea to build this into the amount you are asking for.

    From http://www.angelsden.co.uk/Applicants/appone.aspx?tag=61 :

    Once you get funding we ask for a 5% success fee, so you might want to plan ahead and build this into the amount of investment you ask for so you’re not out of pocket.

  • Doing due diligence

    I have less problem with the fee if I know there are successful fundings.

    There is a testimonial page here: http://www.procustomer.net/info/testimonials.aspx?handle=281511672 however, I am reading this with a more sceptical eye now and it does not seem that a single testimonial on this page has ACTUALLY received funding.

    “I ended the day with a great result; a new investor for the mere price of a full tank of petrol. It was an extremely worthwhile day coupled with a fantastic proposition.

    I have now been in conversations with my investor for the past month and it’s going from strength to strength every day – I imagine having funds safely in the bank account before Christmas when my business plan will finally become a reality.”

    Before Christmas! Last year? Surely there should be some follow up? Can anyone publish a list of successful investments? Surely this would be brilliant marketing for them?

  • http://angelsden.co.uk Frank

    Do they work? The proof is in the quality of deals they’ve facilitated. No such list (or even a deal-by-deal press release) is available and I’ll bet a reliant regal it never will be either.

  • http://paulfwalsh.com Paul Walsh

    Shouldn’t you just apologise and say you got it wrong.

    I hear the words being said to me by a dumb waitress… “but nobody else has complained about so it must be ok”. Or by a phone support rep “but we haven’t got any record of you calling before now so you obviously haven’t called us before”.

  • Gabrielle NYC

    “D@yiannopoulos Rob was NOT a founder, he contracted with us for 5 months = 1deal We have been going for over 2years. Can you take that out?”
    I know for a fact that this was posted on 20/7 just after 6pm. When did you post this story? What happened to fact checking? Guess your guy needs to take better notes!

  • Timeofmonth

    What’s up with TC editors these days. Is it time of the month or are they all just miserable Arrington clones who see the world through half-full pint glasses.

    First was the boring Belgian Robin Wauters abuse of power at the weekend who had a go at Nick Halstead just because “Robins special friend” miserable Marjolein bleated that she had sent a few tweets with an idea and now wanted a substantial payment only because Nick’s hard work and skill has paid off.

    It was tantamount to an “open blackmail letter”. i.e Pay me Nick or else I’ll get big bad TC to ruin you after I speak to my special friends and have all their trolls attack you.

    If it was that brilliant an idea or that important to you, have you ever heard of a contract or patent law?

    Then there is mini-Mike today, gloating about the demise of Shiny Media into the TC “deadpool”.

    And now an attack on AngelsDen or PaulWalsh. It seems whenever anyone tries to do anything good that is not TC related/sponsored they have a pop.

    A few years ago it was Chris Shipley’s Demo which resulted in TC50. And here in the UK, TC recently attacked Mashup, so mini-Mike Butcher decided instead of supporting it he would copy their event format. I can list a dozen more examples of TC mini-Mike’s bitching.

    What’s the point of saying anymore, Mike will just delete this once he gets the chance.

  • http://twitter.com/mikebutcher Mike Butcher

    No, do go on, this mini-Mike thing is hilarious! :-)

  • Gill Helfer

    You cn expect more with Yiannopoulos and Carr, the moron twins of pointless negativity and bad fact-checking, on board.

  • http://Www.monstersandmonkeys.com Sarah Bass

    As I am a very new, in free beta testing mode to get off the ground, plus newly redundant I cannot afford £500 to not know if I would be granted funding or not, especially as my funding required is less than £50k. The lack of real testimonials and facts is also worrying. For many speed dating etc may seem very daunting. I’m a KPMG top 5% and more than used to these type of thongs but 3mins isn’t really enough time to close a deal

  • http://snagsta.com Alex Moore

    Can’t we all just get along? :)

  • Unintended Optimist

    “3mins isn’t really enough time to close a deal”

    you’re not supposed close a deal in that amount of time. The 3mins is purely to establish the basics of your business and see if you’re someone the particular angel can work with.

    The closing of the deal may take days or weeks.

  • http://www.angelsden.co.uk Bill Morrow

    From Bill Morrow,co-founder of Angels Den

    There were so many inaccuracies in the post it’s difficult to know where to start; some have been rectified after the original article was posted after further communication from yours truly.

    But here goes:

    * Rob Carter is not a founder of Angels Den. He worked for us on a contractual basis for four months and we wish him well.

    * We are NOT moving into the startupmarketplace. That is a wholly different groovy website and business. We ARE trying to refine our offering to digital companies, with the help of Paul Walsh, who has come on board as Head of Digital, to make it easier for TechCrunch’s demographic to access funds. IS the market efficient at present? HAS everyone got the funding they need? Once again hard to see why we should be pilloried for this?

    * Bringing Paul into our team heading up our Digital push is an attempt to find out how best to service the TechCrunch market. Paul brings amazing energy and connections to the table. I suggest that this would make an interesting story but I’m new to this space? Any further suggestions on how to improve the digital funding market – hit Bill@angelsden.co.uk

    * The sort of article we’ve seen above does no one any favours, except those who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

    * We did not start taking the 5% backend success fee UNTIL 6 months ago. This would make it hard pushed to be reflected in the 2008 accounts. At the moment we are ploughing every penny, plus, back into the business. Starting up a fund and a regional rollout isn’t cheap which is why we can empathise with so many of our entrepreneurs.

    * In fact the costs for using Angels Den are clearly laid out within the Terms & Conditions and in the communications we have with entrepreneurs. Many Angel networks do not publish their costs.

    * We need to attract angel funding ourselves. And indeed, as we are facing the same hurdles as our client base, we are in a better position than those in their ivory towers to empathise and support those companies looking for funding.

    * “Why don’t we publish a list of all those deals we have done?” (asks a familiar hand). For much the same reason that this website does not publish the names of everyone who subscribes. And I hope you are sitting down reading this but there are unscrupulous people out there who then try and steal those clients (hot for further funding) or contact them (as happened often) to ask the name of the hot angel who they could sell further deals to – It would be commercial suicide

    * Aligned with those companies that do not want the publicity, for example, that does not want their competitive advantage to be promulgated or where a dilution of family control would make news and we are not left with very many to case study. However the homepage has a good number of them. If people would like more testimonials on the site, then we will add them. The sort of information above has saved us many thousands in market research costs. So thank you to everyone who has added their views.

    * The issue remains that perhaps we’ve relied on news items from such organisations as the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8015640.stm) and the FT (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0872abf4-4b96-11de-b827-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1), amongst others, to provide information about who we are and what our successes have been. We will now work towards providing more detailed information of those, where those involved allow us to.

    * Listen, we are not perfect – far from it. But this confused article, which initially purports to be a good news story about a start-up trying to help other start-ups, through hiring one of the true gurus in Digital sector, but which contains a veiled message, aligned with the brave anonymous emails that have been sent to key Angels Den stakeholders today, should be transparent to most….for what it is.

    * Our 14 staff gathered on Monday for our first Summit. I was proud, which is sad and vain, I know, but the energy in the room to change the way things are done was palpable, and makes the fact that I have invested 3 years of my own time and money, and in fact have not been paid out of the company for 3 years even more satisfying.

    * I’m also very proud of the fact we were shortlisted in the 2009 Business Angel Network of the Year” organised by the BBAA (http://www.earlystageevents.co.uk/?page=10865). We must be doing something right!

    Have a look at the website, give me your suggestions (Bill@angelsden.com) on how we can best help you meet our 2700 angels (growing at 110 a month) and then if you still don’t like then that’s ok.

    Thank you for your time.

  • Gabrielle NYC

    Well said Mr Morrow – the BBAA must do DD on nominees!

  • http://ventureplayground.com Jordan

    As businesses find it harder and harder to raise money during these hard economics times, and new founders find it hard to grasp the basic business concepts of raising money, we’re launching VenturePlayground.com within the next few weeks.

  • http://www.internetpeeps.com Robert Loch

    I think that this news is of really significance and that it is a real shame that it was (sorry Milo/Mike but that is self-evident) reported on so sloppily. The article muddied the story with it’s inaccuracies and in doing so failed to provoke a more intelligent discussion.

    The reasons I think that this story is important are 2 fold:

    !. Assuming that the Angels Den figures are accurate – what they have done is astonishing and totally without parallel.

    Angel networks in this country are notoriously ineffective, particularly in the web or new media space. I have always advised people to avoid them.

    Bill has come in and tried to change that – the no. of deals that Angels Den claim to have done, in the time they’ve been running – is many many factors higher than any other angel network in this country. It is huge news and I’ve suggested to Bill that he gets an independent audit done and that he should then scream it from the roof tops. He did point out to me that Angels Den are members of the BBAA although I’m not certain what their requirements for membership are. I’m not a reporter so I haven’t contacted them.

    2. Angels Den are investing time and resources in targeting the digital space. That is no walk in the park.

    As a rule most angel funding for web / digital start-ups comes from people who’ve work in those areas. (As an aside Mike, it would be interesting to know exactly the extent that this is the case) There are obvious reasons for that, amongst them – understanding the opportunity is difficult for people who aren’t in the sector, smart money with knowledge, experience and contacts is very important in newer spaces.

    If Bill can bring some softer money to the sector that would be very welcome. At the moment the money is only smart and there is not enough of it. Softer money is often attracted to bold visions and markets opportunities.

    It will be very interesting to see whether Angels Den can attract investment to this sector. I for one wish the Angels Den team the very best.

  • Paul Shaw

    Membership to the BBAA means nothing, that’s assuming that Angels Den are actually a member in the first place, which seems to be at odds with what the BBAA actually say…

    If Mike or Milo actually call themselves journalists i suggest that they actually check at least that part of the story if they do nothing else as i am sure that the BBAA might tell a different story!

  • http://www.internetpeeps.com Robert Loch

    Paul it appears that I got the wrong end of that – The BAA site says that Angels Den are associates. So yes I’d agree that any association that Angels Den has with BBAA – offers no validation for the number of deals that they claim.

  • http://twitter.com/mikebutcher Mike Butcher

    Hmmn. What seemed to be a – relatively speaking – uncontroversial story (guy leaves company, guy joins company, founder explains how things are going etc) has spiraled into something else.

    Anyway, to cut through all this, we’re offering Bill Morrow the opportunity to sit down in a face to face interview with me to get to the bottom of the Angels Den model and what it can offer startups. We had intended to do this anyway at some point but this news story arrived first before we had a chance. So Bill, when are you free? My email is all over the internet so get in touch.

  • http://www.smallbizpod.co.uk/blog/2009/07/23/angels-den-techcrunch-and-bullshit-detection/ Angels Den, TechCrunch and bullshit detection | entrepreneurs, journalists and hype

    [...] the hoo-ha around a story about online angel network Angels Den which appeared on TechCrunch earlier this [...]

  • Colin Allison

    I can p[ersonally vouch for two fundraisings for an early stage company – the first for £25k and the second for £250k – both through Angels Den and very quickly too. It is more a question of matching appetite of the Angel(s) with a business plan AND the chemistry to work together. The speed pitching, whilst short, does give the prospective investor a feeling for the chemistry that is worth more than a thousand words of business plan. AFTER the pitching, THEN is the time to explore and dig deeper. I have attended three speed pitching events, and can assure you that they are NOT attended by the same 20 angels. The Bristol-based event had all new angels except for one, who was interested in more deals “in the provinces”.

    Bill and his team have brought together angels and entrepreneurs like no other that I presently know of – they are to be highly commended. The success rate is more dependent on the entrepreneur and quality of his/her business plan. To that end, Angels Den HAVE run coaching courses that entrepreneurs have expressed positive feedback on. They also comment on a plan or summary BEFORE it is submitted – improvements/clarifications that are greatfully received.

    Bill Morrow/Angels Den = 5 Star guy/5 Star initiative.

    Colin Allison

  • Bob Andrew

    It’s only spiralled because the story was so poorly written up. No one likes being misrepresented.

  • Bob Andrew

    No one likes being misrepresented, or being the subject of a really badly written article.

  • http://angelsden.co.uk Frank

    Don’t you love anonymous posting Colin?

    I do.

    Sincerely,

    Frank

  • Russell

    Any individual/company that requires payment upfront to “facilitate” sourcing investment or “introducing” you to potentially interested investors should be avoided like a badly infected swine flu victim.

    If these people as so confident of connecting entrepreneurs with active and interested investors and a deal can be agreed, why don’t they work on a success fee?
    Fairly obvious answer but for the stupid, desperate or unaware, IT’S BECAUSE THEY TAKE YOUR MONEY KNOWING THEIR IS ABOUT A 0.000001 CHANCE F SECURING FUNDS FOR YOU.
    To the 2,800 entrepreneurs signed up to AngelsDen: You’ve just wasted a valuable 500 quid.
    Go out and network. Go to events like minibar that cost NOTHING to attend and do your OWN deals and pay NO ONE….

  • Colin Allison

    @Frank …. not sure what you mean.

    @Russell …. The AD 5% IS a success-only fee, whereas the miniscule £499 barely covers costs of putting the AD site together and their work of enticing angels to the site. Does that make it more palatable?

  • josh

    I heard that the BBAA have suspended their membership

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